longstreath.com: THE THREE MAN DIVE TEAM! - longstreath.com

This is common practice on civils in Holland too, with your standby being the diver on the next team along.....regardless of how far away he is, what the water conditions are, and what the task is.

It is part of the reason twenty one year old Ottavio Baumgartner died in Sermide, Italy this April, and needs to be changed worldwide. That three man teams are still allowed is a disgrace!

If there is any chance oif the stand by diver needing to be deployed the minimum dive team, size should be 5 - i.e the supervisor, the two divers and two tenders.

Michael Cocks

"I am going to let the PDF speak for itself it is a worldwide problem in Commercial Diving. In the US it is allowed by LAW, OSHA CFR.
"
It aint a worldwide problem and its not a problem on IMCA jobs either. Why are we even having this discussion FFS three is not enough, every one knows this except.
Its ironic you trash IMCA at every chance you get well I suppose its good that you are trying to do something positive best of luck.

Surely if divers refused to work this way, things would have to change?

I may well have misunderstood, and I would be very happy to be proved wrong, but I thought that the OGP more or less had to resort to quasi-blackmail to induce the IMCA and ADC into mandating five man dive teams against their considerable resistance both before and during the recent OGP review. John put me straight on this please!
It is a worldwide problem in civils diving, a theatre where the IMCA do not appear to operate so much. That is obvious from the number of fatalities and the scenarios surrounding their deaths. This is why we are having this discussion Deepsea.
An Indian diver attending an Experienced Candidiates Assessment course in Scotland had never come across a bail-out or rack box because he dived straight off an industrial compressor on hookah and that was the norm in India. A Cornish firm have recently been prosecuted for apalling shortfalls in the safety of their operations. In Ireland in 2006 I witnessed a two man team in operation because the standby was late for work! I was offered supervision of three man teams in the 90s by a few civils companies in Scotland on the condition that I also worked as a diver which meant that two of the team had to be supervisors. Since I was no longer able to dive I was unemployable by them.
In the early 80s I worked for a number of civils companies, one of whom lost a diver, and three man teams were without exception standard practise!
Tatey you are correct but there will always be a diver, usually young, inexperienced and struggling to find work, who will be willing to take the risk. I have had several pms from them complaining of this.
This is double jeopardy because accidents are far more likely to occur amongst inexperienced personnel than with experienced!

Sometimes it seems that Commercial Diving step once ahead and twice backward.Decade after decade.

There is no doubt that three dive team is insufficient.


Don´t gamble with safety please.

Tatey, lets not forget that without the proper training, people just dont know what is safe and what is not safe.

Education is the start of safety, without it, ignorance is bliss, until the day someone dies.

ADCI & IMCA

ADCI & IMCA
Deepsea; I have never had a love fest with either the ADCI or IMCA. I dive inland and offshore.

bubblesblower2010; Unlike the ADCI and IMCA the OGP does evolve Divers and Supervisors in what they are doing. It is my hope that that continues and they are successful. I will assure you they are the big boys and play what they are doing close to their vest. In other words I answer their questions as best as I can but they don’t tell me anything they don’t think I need to know. I Know they are moving ahead on their Dive Safety Workshop in Houston.
OGP Dive Safety Workshop

Mark Longstreath, on 04 August 2011 - 06:10 AM, said:

I completely agree with what Mark Said.
Safety of the diver should be the most important thing on a job.Many a time i have found out that even the client and dive supervisors(unfortunately) consider the toolbox talks ,JSA as a time wasting exercise but i have always believed (and will always believe irrespective what the clients think) that this 10minutes talk is goes a long way in educating the dive team and divers are made aware of what they should be looking out for.
Education/Training starts the safety thought process and i request all the divers to "DON'T SAY YES WHEN YOU WANT TO SAY NO".
Dive safe.

The whole set-up including ladder 5-20' is a death-trap and only exists because of commercial pressure to get work done on the cheap.

Quote

rajgaur;

I could not agree more every dangerious situation is made less so by a TOOL BOX. You have stopped to do it everyone is informed. I think it is one of the most importent tools for safety we have and it is not used enought.

John,

good one , at least you have rules which shows someone cares, its who is writing the rules you have a problem with i guess.

we have rules for inshore in the UK, they state 4 man team, its not good enough, there is a sting in the tail though, our rules mention team sizeby risk assessment, what this means is you turn up with a 4 man team and if you have an accident you 'might' get prosecuted. i dont think anyone has ever been procecuted for a four man inshore team in the uk, someone tell me i am wrong please?

'If there is any chance oif the stand by diver needing to be deployed the minimum dive team, size should be 5 - i.e the supervisor, the two divers and two tenders'

coxy, a pillar of diving safety should be that the standby is set up to be deployed, in all cases. there is never a situation were the chance that a standby might not be needed so you dont need to take 5 men. or at least thats how it should be with hose gear.

george

George and All;

OSHA regulation mentions risk assessment as well but then Risk Assessment is in the eye of who is doing it. It counts on the good will and knowledge of those doing it.

In the US, at the most, a death results in nothing more than a fine, for the company. There is no criminal liability to the Dive Supervisor, the Company providing the diving service or the customer rep. So what you have is incentive to blow off the regulation. The number of time I have had a project manager say “can’t you just” is beyond count.

In the US a SCUBA Certification has more standing under the law then an ADCI or IMCA Supervisors Card.

Three men teams defy the necessary logistics required for safe diving.
Once the first diver has exhausted his bottom time he is no longer capable of acting as the next standby diver. He can only act as stand-in Supervisor or as a tender. This leaves the supervisor as standby for the second diver. For a third dive, made by the supervisor, the first diver would be standby/tender on a repet. table and the second diver would be stand-in supervisor. All well and good when dives go according to plan but you will need two to three of the 3 man team experienced enough to be capable of supervision!
When and if the proverbial hits the fan, however, the three man team will be stuck between a rock and a hard place! The supervisor of that dive will be tending both diver and standby and also supervising the diver recovery...a barely possible and ineffective operation. He has only two hands tending the divers, using his chin presumably to switch from diver to diver on the comms. and to depress the talk button, and operate the client/crane comms.radio if there is one. Finally he can only take in both divers slack by hauling in both at the same time whilst possibly trapping one umbilical under his foot if necessary.
The three man team is barely an effective unit in the first place and if there is an accident it is totally inadequate.
Another "no brainer".

The list of fatalities and the tragic manner of their passing is evidence enough that the three man team is a potential death trap!